30th October 2006, 05:21 AM
Saul of Co Down 1846
I am a bit later entering into this stream and if I turn out to be covering old ground please except my apology in advance.
I am not a descendant of the surname 'Saul'. However, because of a document relating to my own ancestor, a William John Rourke, where the surname Saul crops up, I have some material which may eventually help someone who came from the area of Downpatrick, Co Down Ireland.
I was trying to pinpoint my own Rourke to a place in Co Down, without success. I then used a little bit of lateral thinking & went searching for the 'Saul' surname instead - originally for the era of 1848.
I found a Thomas M Saul, & his family, living in Down Parish in the year 1846 - Scotch St, Downpatrick - & he was a wine & spirit merchant & grocer. There were a number of other Sauls there also.
Given that surnames did not come into use until around the 15th century - and then a little later in Ireland, it may be that the name was originally a place name. Of course the village of Saul is just outside Down. Did the name evolve via place names and religion? – I think it could turn out to be a bit of both. If Saul was a place name, few with it would be related, I suspect.
I am not terribly sure I believe the version of the Catholic Encyclopedia and the 'barn' being the cause of the name, and I am a Catholic!
Roughy speaking, a form of Christianity was already in both Britain and Ireland based on the Judiac sense before it underwent a metamorphosis and became ‘Pauline’ or Roman Christianity. St Paul of course was formerly known as Saul of Tarsus & had a turbulent background before he changed.
Controvery also surrounds St Patrick, who it is said, was out of the good books of Rome when he went to Ireland – so frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if St Patrick practiced his own form of Judiac Christianity when he first went to Ireland – all conjecture of course, and you can hang me out to dry for that, if you want. Ireland was said to be the great seat of learning after the death of Christ – but all was lost or destroyed when Roman Christianity took over.
Saul could be similar to the name of ‘Cluney’ and it’s derivatives. As a place name, a lot of Cluney/Clune etc surnames would have derived from the place where the Cluny Monastery/Church was built– (Cluniacs; from the reformed Benedictine Monastery built at Cluney, (Clugney) Saone et Loire, Macon, France, which was founded in 910 by Duke William of Aquitaine. The famous Mother Church (the building took up 25 acres) spread to 15 more in the then known world)
Also to press my point...There is a place called Cluney in Australia that was previously the name of a property owned by the McPhersons of Scotland. Originally, the clan of McPherson was called Cluney and both of them were brothers. Cluney never produced any heirs so his brother McPherson took over as leader & the clan became McPherson – which simply means ‘son of a preacher”…
27th February 2009, 12:15 AM
Re: Saul of Co Down 1846
I'm a new member of this website, trying to locate & know more about my greatgrandfather's origin.
My greatgrandfather's name is GEORGE MEDHURST SAUL. He migrated to the Philippines, from Ireland during the 18th century. I don't have any knowledge about his siblings, as well as his exact place of origin.
I remembered my grandfather mentioned to us about a place called DOWNPATRICK and a village named SAUL in IRELAND.
My great grandfather George founded a business establishment (HOSKYN COMPOUND) in the Philippines. He married DAMIANA ROBLES Y FIGUERROA, a Spanish from the Philippines. They were blessed with 4 boys named Raymond, Charles Medhurst, my grandfather(Edward Joseph), Walter Medhurst, and a daughter who died at an early age.
All the boys were educated in the UK, under the guidance of their Aunt LUCY. My grandfather Edward and his brother Raymond stayed in the Philippines, with their respective family (both were dead). His brother Charles migrated to USA as he joined the US World War II Militarymen, while the youngest WALTER MEDHURST who worked at MARSHMANN Company, migrated to the UK.
I hope this website can help me locate any descendants of my greatgrandfather, and put me in touch with them.
AMNA(Lovelia Noelly Saul Tabang)
Last edited by Tim Soles; 27th February 2009 at 08:36 AM.
28th February 2009, 11:10 AM
Re: Saul of Co Down 1846
George Medhurst Saul was born in Liverpool, Lancashire, England in 1851. From information provided to the Society in 1994 (but apparently based on research carried out many years previous) he had five children, Raymond George, Joseph Edward, Robert Henry, Charles Medhurst and Walter Medhurst. I think that all the children were bor in the Philippines but this is not made entirley clear. The only additional information provided about the children is that Robert Henry was an electrical engineer living in England, Charles Medhurst lives in San Francisco and Walter Medhurst lives in Lloilo (? Philippines). Some of this seems to conflict with what you have said and I cannot, of course, vouch for the accuracy of the information provided to us. It might be possible to trace forward some of the descendants of the above from the Society's records, though these are predominately UK based. All of the Society's records are made freely available to members, most of which are included on a CD Rom. If you are interested in joining the Society you can do so on our main website, there is a link from the Forum.
The information traces back the ancestry of George Medhurst Saul to Downpatrick in Northern Ireland so, at least, there is agreement there.
28th February 2009, 09:35 PM
Re: Saul of Co Down 1846
First I have to apologize for the inaccuracy of the information &names of my grandfather's (Edward Joseph)siblings,as I'm not sure also for they're having 2 names.
As I read your reply,I'm sure you're referring to my greatgrandfather George for he migrated in ILOILO,PHILIPPINES,founded the business establishment(HOSKYN COMPOUND).All his kids were born in Philippines.
Raymond- (the eldest)lived&died in Iloilo,Philippines.
Edward Joseph-(my grandfather)lived &died in Iloilo,Philippines.
Robert-I don't have any information about him.
Charles- migrated to USA as US World War II Militaryman.
Walter (the youngest) worked @Marshmann Company,Philippines,but went to UK after his retirement.
My greatgrandparents(George &Damiana) as well as my grandfather(Edward Joseph) were burried @ American Veterans Cemetery,ILOILO,PHILIPPINES.I will try to get a photo of their graveyards,Godwilling if I'll go vacation to Iloilo,Philippines,for I'm presently based @ Saudi Arabia .
John,thanks so much for the information you shared to me,I hope I can get more of the "missing links".I'll try to register myself as a member of the Society .
Amna(Lovelia Noelly Saul Tabang)
Last edited by Amna Lovelia Saul Tabang; 28th February 2009 at 09:58 PM.
28th February 2017, 09:21 PM
Re: Nelson Charles SAUL
Re Walter Medhurst Saul: born Philippines, son of George Medhurst Saul. Both mentioned in 'The Directory and Chronicle of China, Japan, Corea (sic), Indo-China, Straits' etc, published 1908 & 1912, page 1384 under Iloilo, Philippines:
'Hoskyn & Co, Merchants. G. Medhurst Saul, H.P. Hoskyn, G.M. Loring, A. Ponce de Leon, E. Garcia, E.J. Saul, J.C. Hoskyn, W.E.M. Saul (my grandfather), Jose Garcia. Agencies: Netherlands Fire Insurance Co, Coast and Geodetic Survey Office'.
George Medhurst Saul, born Liverpool 1851 (see previous post by Saul Forum moderator, John Slaughter, 28 February 2009, married Damiana Robles Y Figuerroa (see posting by Amna Lovelia Saul Tabang on 27 February 2009).
My Mother is one of the three daughters of Walter Medhurst Saul & Doris Tennent. Daughters were: Pat, Penny & Barbara June. All born in Iloilo, Philippines. My Mother Barbara June Medhurst Saul was born on 2 June 1925, she is named Barbara after a golf course and June because she was born in June! My Mother is thriving, aged 92 and lives in East Sussex, England. Pat and Penny are now deceased. Pat, the eldest, was a Wren (Women's Royal Navy Service) and did important and secret work at Bletchley Park in WWII and later worked for P&O shipping and for the Palestine Exploration Fund. Penny joined the War Office as did Barbara June but this work is still classified under British Law and neither has ever talked about it.
Their Father, Walter Medhurst Saul, sent his wife and three daughters to England before the Japanese invasion of the Philippines in WWII. Unfortunately Walter Medhurst Saul was captured by the Japanese and put in the Santo Tomas prison camp in Manila. (See wikipedia entry). It was awful. He was very badly treated and malnourished. Although he survived imprisonment, he was a broken man and returned to England where he died in the 1960s. I was too young to know him. The 'Medhurst' name comes from a relation called Walter Henry Medhurst (1796-1857), he was an English Congregationalist missionary to China. He wrote "China, it's state and prospects", published by John Snow, London, 1838 and republished 1842. In the 1840s he helped translate the Bible into classical Chinese and the New Testament into the Mandarin dialect of Nanking. He died in 1857 and was buried in Abney cemetery, London - there is still a memorial (see photo on wikipedia). His son Sir Walter Henry Medhurst (1822-1885) was British consul at Hankow and Shanghai.